Hands Across the Sand-Join us to stop near shore Oil Drilling In Florida Waters

[Geo]

im not so sure that was analytical nor reasonable sounded like reductio ad ridiculum to me

side note: way to go dave not only spearheading a noble cause but got your restaurants name all over the state...double threat guy i like it

perhaps once this is defeated and never to return we can stand up against the oil rigs already pumping oil in big cypress and shut them down

I took an elementary logic class freshman year too. Shall we break out the "truth tree"?

I invested a lot of time attempting to point out why I believe our geologist friend's post contained invalid arguments and why I believe it was less than objective. If you disagree, show me where and why. Don't just do a drive by.

 

[jack S]

Last week at the committee meeting in tally, the "energy people" admitted that drilling will NOT reduce gas prices at all! So you can leave the soaring gas prices arguement out of this.
Senator Gaetz, using typical fear tactic, cites the need to be independent of mideast oil! Ain't gonna happen by drilling!
Who will protect us from the biggest thieves, worse than the mid east. They manipulate minds with lies. They manipulate prices to twist your arm. They manipulate the legislature with the money they steal from us, all the while convincing us its mid east oil's fault. And in the process, they make record profit. Why that would be the big hat, flag waving texas oil men.
Please check nottheanswer.org There is a picture there of starving dolphin due to the australian oil spill.
None of the proponents want to discuss the environment. All compromise is ALWAYS at the expense of the environment!

 

[GoodWitch58]

Offshore drilling splits House | tallahassee.com | Tallahassee Democrat

"Opponents speak of tar balls washing ashore, hurricanes uprooting even submerged oil pumps and a change of Florida's image from the nation's playground to its utility room. Proponents promise jobs, hundreds of millions in sorely needed tax revenue and an environmentally safe contribution to energy independence.

Public support for some forms of drilling has risen in polls by Associated Industries of Florida since 2006. Last year, aligning with GOP presidential nominee John McCain, Gov. Charlie Crist switched ? saying he could support considering drilling that's "far enough, safe enough and clean enough" ? and the state House passed a bill that would have allowed the state's Cabinet to grant drilling permits."

 

[jack S]

What is "clean enough"? compromise on our environment!!!

 

[Kurt]

Murph - thanks for adding to the discussion. It is always nice to see the other side, or parts of it. And thanks for your work in preserving public lands in SoWal. I wish our predecessors had posessed the foresight not to build so close to the gulf and the lakes. Hindsight is (nearly) 20/20. I am glad guys like Dave are getting involved so that foresight can be used in this case.

 

[murphrg]

My name is Bob Murphy, I live in Grayton. Grew up on the beach in New York where I witnessed what is now the largest “Beach Restoration Project” in the world, (Rockaway Beach), destroyed the vegetation and dunes I grew up on. It was started in 1965 and they are still dredging offshore sediments onto the now dark course grained sand on the beach and have killed all the near shore biota that fed the marine fisheries there. I witnessed the scrapping of the beaches here and the digging of trenches in the shore post Opal with no regard for the permanent damage to the shore. I am a Certified Petroleum Geologist; I am a member of the Society of Independent Professional Earth Scientists, licensed as a Professional Geologist in Florida and Texas. I have worked in Geology for 36 years, and my respect for the earth and our environment are paramount
The concept of there being a difference between Oil Companies and Gas producing entities is not valid. The very same companies that drill for oil drill for gas, they are in reality energy companies. They do not, in my opinion, stand in the way of Natural Gas powered vehicles. In fact the technology for CNG engines and vehicles is well established at least since 1975 when my friend had one. If you look at the Okaloosa Gas trucks you will see they are powered by natural gas. It is amazing to me that we as a nation are insisting to push electric vehicles when the storage technology is still developing, as well as the need to generate and inefficient transport of electricity to the end user. It is presently much less efficient than internal combustion engines. There is certainly a need to advance the storage technology and efficiencies with electric engines, but a bridge is needed to cover that gap. Natural gas is an obvious choice. The problem is we do not have a distribution system which could fill your car with compressed natural gas like you use a filling station, nor do we have one for electricity either. In fact the BTU (energy content) value of oil to an mcf of gas is 6:1, which is one barrel of oil has as much energy as 6,000 cubic feet of methane. This morning the price of oil is near $80, the price of 1,000 cubic feet of gas is about $4. The cost of gas as an energy source is about a third the cost of oil!! That is because we produce almost 100% of our use in the USA and import almost none.
The fact of the matter is when the energy demands get high enough, and prices cause the entire state and country to do something about it, it would be better for us to have made these decisions in a calm manner and have plans and protections in place. By putting it off you place us in the position of having some outside force inject unpopular decisions on us all. The search for Oil and Gas is complex and takes many years to do correctly. If it were opened tomorrow, it would take 10 years to even identify a place to drill and work through all the red tape of federal and State regulations. I trust you have some concept of the MMS and how the process works.
Back in the mid 80’s when we were working to protect the State Forest here in Walton County and I was one of the founding members of “Beach to Bay”, a group of volunteers and environmentalists I was asked what I thought of the proposal to drill off of Pensacola. I answered that they really didn’t want to know what I thought. They insisted that my opinion had value, so I said it would be good for fishing. That led to a diatribe very much like your response,Geo, although it didn’t sound centered on any pertinent geological facts either. I responded to him that I was correct; they did not want to hear my opinion!

Indulge yourself and protest loud. I know it makes you feel good. I was not attempting to change anybody's minds with this post, just tired of hearing how one sided these discussions are.
By the way, who are you and what makes you so smart.

 

[jjnole04]

"too" i don't recall taking any classes with you nor do i know what the "truth tree" is (shruggy face emoticon) so break out whatever helps guy (sunglasses slightly cocked mouthy face emoticon) in the end it doesnt matter...no bill has been filed yet so dave is way ahead of the game...however in addition to holding hands, it is going to be much more important to vote with your wallets, thats how oil interests are going to win, start a 527, raise money and use it to support candidates that are opposed and defeat it that way, politicians respond to money thats why this is even an issue...i dont think long long term implications are being considered by the likes of haridopolis and cannon. this is an issue because the state needs money, our state constitution requires a balanced budget every year, they jacked up our "fees" last year so what can they do this year, i guess cutting costs and reducing the state payroll is not an option. far more is to be made off of people who come to visit than off of the proceeds from oil rigs. but what do i know i have no skin in the game, you say less tourists i hear less people driving below the speed limit in the passing lane, no parking problems in grayton, no crap left on the beach, and a lower cost of living which all sound pretty good to me (winky face emoticon)

 

[Geo]

My name is Bob Murphy, I live in Grayton. Grew up on the beach in New York where I witnessed what is now the largest “Beach Restoration Project” in the world, (Rockaway Beach), destroyed the vegetation and dunes I grew up on. It was started in 1965 and they are still dredging offshore sediments onto the now dark course grained sand on the beach and have killed all the near shore biota that fed the marine fisheries there. I witnessed the scrapping of the beaches here and the digging of trenches in the shore post Opal with no regard for the permanent damage to the shore. I am a Certified Petroleum Geologist; I am a member of the Society of Independent Professional Earth Scientists, licensed as a Professional Geologist in Florida and Texas. I have worked in Geology for 36 years, and my respect for the earth and our environment are paramount
The concept of there being a difference between Oil Companies and Gas producing entities is not valid. The very same companies that drill for oil drill for gas, they are in reality energy companies. They do not, in my opinion, stand in the way of Natural Gas powered vehicles. In fact the technology for CNG engines and vehicles is well established at least since 1975 when my friend had one. If you look at the Okaloosa Gas trucks you will see they are powered by natural gas. It is amazing to me that we as a nation are insisting to push electric vehicles when the storage technology is still developing, as well as the need to generate and inefficient transport of electricity to the end user. It is presently much less efficient than internal combustion engines. There is certainly a need to advance the storage technology and efficiencies with electric engines, but a bridge is needed to cover that gap. Natural gas is an obvious choice. The problem is we do not have a distribution system which could fill your car with compressed natural gas like you use a filling station, nor do we have one for electricity either. In fact the BTU (energy content) value of oil to an mcf of gas is 6:1, which is one barrel of oil has as much energy as 6,000 cubic feet of methane. This morning the price of oil is near $80, the price of 1,000 cubic feet of gas is about $4. The cost of gas as an energy source is about a third the cost of oil!! That is because we produce almost 100% of our use in the USA and import almost none.
The fact of the matter is when the energy demands get high enough, and prices cause the entire state and country to do something about it, it would be better for us to have made these decisions in a calm manner and have plans and protections in place. By putting it off you place us in the position of having some outside force inject unpopular decisions on us all. The search for Oil and Gas is complex and takes many years to do correctly. If it were opened tomorrow, it would take 10 years to even identify a place to drill and work through all the red tape of federal and State regulations. I trust you have some concept of the MMS and how the process works.
Back in the mid 80’s when we were working to protect the State Forest here in Walton County and I was one of the founding members of “Beach to Bay”, a group of volunteers and environmentalists I was asked what I thought of the proposal to drill off of Pensacola. I answered that they really didn’t want to know what I thought. They insisted that my opinion had value, so I said it would be good for fishing. That led to a diatribe very much like your response,Geo, although it didn’t sound centered on any pertinent geological facts either. I responded to him that I was correct; they did not want to hear my opinion!

Indulge yourself and protest loud. I know it makes you feel good. I was not attempting to change anybody's minds with this post, just tired of hearing how one sided these discussions are.
By the way, who are you and what makes you so smart.

Hi Bob,

Thank you for having the courage to share your identity. We do not agree on this issue but I respect you very much for sharing your opinions as you rather than sticking with the relative anonymity of an avatar and a screenname.

I am satisfied that A) you are really a geologist and that B) you do care about the environment. That said, I stand by my assertions in my response to your original post.

I really put a lot of effort into reading and trying to understand your words and I spent a great deal of time typing a response to them. It is disappointing that rather than clarifying your points that you instead just write me off as someone who feels good/indulges himself by protesting loud. It is a shame that instead of refuting my argument that you refer to it as a "diatribe".

My name is George. I enjoy the art of conversation/communication and I like to argue. I feel the need to point out faulty arguments on all sides of a debate, especially when they might seem credible on the surface. I live in Santa Rosa Beach and my avatar is a picture of me.

I know nothing about geology or sniffing out oil fields. But I can smell BS 60 miles offshore. (that last jab was intended to be playful)

 

[jodiFL]

That was not a platform, it was a drilling jack-up rig storm waves were obviously very large, and if you were here for Opal you would have seen cars, trucks, and wrecks washed up on the beach here. Other storms have washed up military drones and ordinance on these beaches as well. I'm not saying there are no risks in this life, or that I am for drilling within 3 miles of our beach. But you can still realize there are two sides to the discussion, and the problems are not easy ignore for either possition.

Isnt a jack-up rig just a mobile platform?? And I was here for Opal but I dont remember seeing any cars or trucks washed up, only household appliances from the destroyed homes near Dune Allen. Maybe the ones you saw were from those houses also. I have also personally found ordinance on these beaches that was not from a storm , just from the natural erosion of the sand.

Beyond the environmental issue is the economic issue. Why place your mulit billion dollar tourist and military economy in jeapordy for a future promise of 2-3 billion a year down the road? 120 billion v. 2? Not a single guarenteed job for Floridians? Texas to benefit but not our State while giving up our most valuable commodity?

I agree that we should be wary of these companies promising jobs for Floridians. The majority (if not all) jobs would probably go to the employees that are already with by these companies, most of whom would love to move from TX to our beaches. Until they make them look like TX beaches, when they will move on to the next "big reserve' they find or think they will find.
I think that the key to stop our dependency on foreign oil is not to drill for more of it here but to look to and invest in, the other forms of energy that are so abundant here, i.e. wind and solar. The billions spent on just one drilling site that may or may not yield could be better spent on building power plants that produce these cleaner energy sources.

 

[Dave Rauschkolb]

Talk of a Special Session in December on Rail issue??? Or is it Oil as well

There could be a special session called to discuss the High Speed Rail Issue. Strange isn't it that this can't wait until March? It is very possible, the Oil Bill could be introduced to the Senate in December during this special session. All while the public are scrambling to shop for the holidays. We need to follow this development very closely.



Immediate, Continual Updates at
News Service of Florida - State Government Reporting



HOUSE WAITING FOR SENATE TO GET ON BOARD SUNRAIL SPECIAL SESSION

By KEITH LAING
THE NEWS SERVICE OF FLORIDA

THE CAPITAL, TALLAHASSEE, Oct. 28, 2009..........Thus far, most of the Tallahassee talk about a possible December special session to approve the controversial proposed SunRail commuter train in Orlando has come from the upper chamber of the Legislature.

But one of the House sponsors of the bill that would have allowed the train to be built last year told the News Service of Florida that the lower chamber is simply waiting to see if the Senate will get on board with the session and signal it will approve the plan.

The House has been ready to go for two years on it, said Rep. Dave Murzin, R-Pensacola, who introduced the House companion to the SunRail that bill the Senate voted down last year. We're just waiting to see what the Senate wants to do. The House has moved in the past in that direction to support it and I think they would be predisposed to support it (again in a special session).

In 2008, the House approved the language of a liability agreement with CSX Corp., which the freight rail company had tied to the sale of the 61 miles of track that would be used to run SunRail trains. The bill also cleared its only House committee in 2009, but the plan reached the end of the line in the Senate when staunch opposition led by Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, brought it down on the floor of the Senate.

Murzin, who chairs the House Economic Development & Community Affairs Policy Council, said the House was waiting to see if the Senate math would add up differently before jumping on board with the special session talk.

Let's see if it was put up on the board, would they have the votes, Murzin said. Then we'll move forward. If they don't have the votes, why waste the time, effort, and money of going up to Tallahassee?

The wheels on the special session talk began moving quickly last week when Senate President Jeff Atwater said the federal government was looking for action on other rail projects in Florida before it considers approving the state's $2.5 billion application for the first leg of the long proposed Tampa-Orlando-Miami bullet train. In total, the state submitted three applications for some of the $8 billion that is available in the federal economic stimulus package for high speed rail, also asking for $432 for SunRail and $70 million for Atlantic Coast Amtrak service.

Decisions on the applications are expected by the end of the year, forcing lawmakers to consider reconvening early if they want to show the federal government the state is serious about rail.

However, after Atwater raised the specter of a rail special session during his trip to meet with federal transportation officials and the Florida U.S. delegation in Washington, D.C., House Speaker Larry Cretul's office said only that the speaker would discuss the possibility with Atwater when he returned. But Murzin said the House was aware of the importance of acting on SunRail, even if it was leery of getting too far ahead of the Senate.

'Whenever the feds say there's an opportunity to draw down more money, Florida needs to be first in line, he said. That adds to the sense of urgency.

Murzin added that there could be advantages to dealing with SunRail in a limited special session instead of a wide-open regular session, when it could be linked with other issues. Last year, backers linked funding for Tri-Rail to the plan in an unsuccessful effort to win support from the South Florida delegation.

There's lots of dynamics in there, Murzin said. There's statewide concern about expenditures of money, and it got caught up in the trial lawyer fight. Unfortunately, a lot of times it revolves around who you can sue. Tri-Rail was mixed in there too, and kind of muddied the water up. Going into a special session, you're going in with one issue.

The 2008 Senate SunRail sponsor, Sen. Lee Constantine, R-Altamonte Springs, told the News Service that he could not predict whether the House would ultimately get on the special session train, but he was confident that the plan had support in the chamber.

I've not heard anything from (the House) that they would be interested (in a special session), but I would hope they would be receptive, being that one of the sponsors over there will be the next Speaker of the House, Constantine said, referring to key SunRail backer Rep. Dean Cannon, R-Winter Park. The (House) leadership felt comfortable they would be able to pass the bill in whatever form it passed in the Senate.

-END-
10/28/09

Detailed context on Florida transportation issues is available on the NSF Transportation Backgrounder at The News Service of Florida: Florida Transportation Backgrounder.

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News Service of Florida - State Government Reporting